S

S2EP85. How she is making arts accessible & fun for all w/ Nivedita Poddar, Art Fervour

N ivedita is the creative director and founder of Art Fervour, India’s first visual arts discovery platform. Art Fervour positions itself uniquely by being India’s only art + tech platform to make the arts accessible to all, by pushing the boundaries of technology and innovation within the arts.

With 5 years of experience in the art world, she has a strong understanding of contemporary art, the art market and contemporary artist practises. With this expertise, she currently spearheads a team of 10 at Art Fervour. She has also been working closely with Gurr Johns for the past 5 years as a client advisor to ultra-high net worth private and institutional clients from India in South Asian Modern and Contemporary art.

Prior to starting Art Fervour, she was an independent art consultant for Westin Hotels & Resorts and a Gallery Associate at Experimenter, Frieze London. As the curator of the debut exhibition for Malachi Farrell, a french artist, in the UK, she was instrumental is introducing his practise to an international audience. She now plays a significant role in spotting the best of the best in the arts and emerging artists and giving them a platform through Art Fervour. Having worked with multi-diverse teams throughout her career, she has gained remarkable industry insights that she consistently uses in identifying opportunities within the art world in India.

Follow Art Fervour: 

https://www.artfervour.com/
https://www.instagram.com/art.fervour/

Charuka Arora, Founder of Arts To Hearts Project

https://www.instagram.com/charukaarora/

www.charukaarora.com

Arts To Hearts Project

https://artstoheartsproject.com/

www.instagram.com/artstoheartsproject/

00:00.00
charukaarora
Hey you guys welcome back to the arts to hearts podcast this is your host chara and today I have Navas the port with me who’s an art ven a creative and the founder of art forever welcome to the podcast neveta.

00:15.37
Nivedita
Thanks sharokah for having me. It was a pleasure to it’s but it’s a pleasure to be here and meet you.

00:20.47
charukaarora
Same here same here. Thank you so much I’ve been following art forward and like we both know there are very few digital platforms in India so we kind of know who they are and you know all of that. So I’ve been following your work for quite a you know quite a while and I’m so so. In awe and so proud of the work that you’ve been doing but before we actually talk about but we we will go there. We’ll talk about art forward and anything like all of that. But first would you like to introduce yourself who na way that I is and just just.

00:41.54
Nivedita
Um, thank you so much. They have any good.

00:57.52
charukaarora
Introduce yourself for anyone who’s listening to this episode and then we’ll go further.

01:00.60
Nivedita
Yeah, sure well I’m the founder of Arthober I started this art journey very sort of in a very simple manner of being interested in digging photographs when I was traveling and this I was like 12 or 13

01:18.77
charukaarora
Okay.

01:20.48
Nivedita
And I was very sure at some point that I was going to be 1 of those people hiding in a Bush taking pictures of some exciting animals some exciting wildlife. But then I slowly realized that perhaps that life is not for me and I sort of pivoted into the gallery and museum world.

01:26.33
charukaarora
Ah.

01:38.91
Nivedita
And I ended up sort of I had the opportunity of startinging the art market at Christie’s and for my master’s and then that sort of my journey began with the space I I absolutely love the arts I love sort of. Um, speaking to artists understanding their creative process um getting into what ah inspires them what they’re trying to communicate what they’re creating I think it’s such a a each of them has such a unique worldview. And I think that’s what sort of keeps me interested I also I sort of always had this? Um, so interest in the arts and when I I was trying to enter the space I thought it was a little tough to break that barrier to not have that.

02:32.17
charukaarora
Oh with you on that.

02:35.22
Nivedita
Art historical. Yeah, you know not have that art historical understanding and I was like but why you know the fashion and design Worlds are so much more accessible. Why is in the art world and you don’t have to you actually like nobody’s creating none of the artists actually creating. Ah.

02:41.37
charukaarora
Yes, yes.

02:54.59
Nivedita
For ah, just people inside of this barrier. You know that doesn’t need to be a barrier and that is sort of what drove me then and I think that’s what sort of drives us even today is that how do we make the arts more accessible. How do we have more people engage with the arts. How do we grow this ecosystem. And that’s why like on art photo what you see a lot of is very accessible content. We’re like how can we make the arts more fun. Um, so yeah, that’s a little bit about me and how I started art for.

03:21.84
charukaarora
Yeah.

03:29.26
charukaarora
Amazing. Thank you so much. You know you, you’ve really you know rightly said this and something I really strongly Philly I’m I’m sure you will obey this because I’m I’m also trying to include like a lot more South Asian and indian. Um, perspectives on the podcast on the platform and we’ve had a lot of people from the us the west and you know something that I feel as a stock difference is some you know the accessibility of art in India um I grew up I grew up in um, let’s say in um in a small town. I grew very closely to crafts because that’s how the kind of you know India is culturally very rich in crafts. But there was nothing um in in our culture or like you know in our lifestyle especially in our parents adaptation where you we are being exposed.

04:21.16
Nivedita
Yeah.

04:21.47
charukaarora
To art. Um, especially if you’re not living in like a metro city are dominated city like Delhi let’s say calkata or you know space like these which still have been more relevant.

04:28.61
Nivedita
Um I think even I think even then like it’s essentially not a very large part of school like education systems and I mean I went to a great school I Love my high school but like the only thing we learned was how to draw how to paint.

04:35.82
charukaarora
Yes.

04:45.50
charukaarora
Um, yeah.

04:47.68
Nivedita
And a couple of like other mediums of maybe printmaking. But I think that art historical perspective is so important that you’re not sort of shutted just into hey do you have the drawing skills. You may not and I actually have no skills I can’t draw and I can’t paint.

04:52.70
charukaarora
Yeah, yes.

05:05.41
Nivedita
But it took so long for me to understand that that could be a different way of like experiencing art and it doesn’t have to be that you create and I think that’s a very um I think that’s a very crucial sort of point where in it. Just.

05:07.39
charukaarora
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

05:22.77
Nivedita
You can’t um, access something unless you understand it and I think that understanding is very important.

05:26.91
charukaarora
Absolutely yeah, and also I think perspectively this is this was something that benita and I also spoke um in our last conversation in in the previous episode like I recorded I don’t know when this will be published. But. I just spoke to a a couple of days before and you know like a question that I also ask on the podcast a lot of times like my friends would tell me oh when I was 5 or like 8 that’s when I like you know went to a museum or like a gallery and I was like you know what I didn’t go to a gallery probably quite um. Over twenty like after that I think that’s when not that I defers I didn’t know existence I was too scared because I didn’t come from an art world I didn’t know the rules they were very intimidating I know even today I take a lot of effort to bring my friends and break that ice for them but people are so intimidated because that’s like a very. Like ah in introduction like if you’re a 25 year old and you’re suddenly ah going and it’s also a notion that art is only for the aristocrats are like only for a certain section of the society. It’s not flown down into the system which you know perceive people perceive it very differently and I really.

06:31.69
Nivedita
Yeah, yeah.

06:37.98
Nivedita
Yeah.

06:41.41
charukaarora
Like you know Benita was also sharing like they’re having like these school trips over to um her show and like you know, very unlike very opening up and we just spoke about how important that was because I think one person struggle I felt for a very long time was. Knowing what’s possible like if I see you today. Okay, you know someone is if someone is pies to be in art history or like you know and also seeing someone’s trajectory. Okay, you can do this, you can do this but then you can still do this as well. Like you know that transition or the possibility of what is possible for. If. It’s possible for you. It can be possible for anyone else who’s coming after you or even next to you like that I feel is so so important.

07:24.30
Nivedita
Yeah I know absolutely I agree I think that like I think a lot of the museums have activated this space more I know that Karami does a lot with schools and colleges I know that maps doing some things and I think it is the responsibility also of the institutions to reach out.

07:33.36
charukaarora
Yeah.

07:41.20
charukaarora
Um, yes, yeah, let’s do.

07:43.18
Nivedita
And engage with like younger audiences and I think they’re doing that it might be late but I mean some things better than nothing. So um I think from that ah that was actually 1 of the reasons why this this intimidation factor was one of the reasons. Why I started art 4 with ah we have a game on our website that allows you to find your art person out and the idea behind that is exactly this right that you could be It’s very visual. It kind of understands what your interests are and then the logic tells you.

08:08.36
charukaarora
Yeah I thought that.

08:20.40
Nivedita
This is the kind of art you might like and that’s exactly what it is supposed to do is for is to allow people who are interested. They’re curious enthusiastic but they’re like hey I don’t think I know much So let me stay away from this.

08:23.39
charukaarora
Now.

08:36.39
Nivedita
Like no come play this game find your persona. Let us tell you what you can see where you can find it. Um and I think that it’s um I think just because of like our engagement and interaction with. Technology in general I think everything today is immersive. It’s sensorial and sort of that engagement with the arts is also important. You know you said right? Now you’re like hey we do some studio visits. It’s so much more engaging to like do a studio visit or meet an artist or speak to them. You have so much more context for their work for the work that you’re looking at. So yeah.

09:14.47
charukaarora
Absolutely makes sense. Perhaps we could tell me something something I am very interested in knowing I know that you mentioned being like you know, having aspire to be a photographer but that’s also something that’s mentioned you know in your work profile file. I’m just trying to connect the dots and understand your journey as a creative first were you creative as a child like and you know how it’s not like the creative definition of what how we are taught but in my reals a sense were you a creative child and then. But how has your journey been um as a creator and you know how that led to you to art for.

09:58.69
Nivedita
Um, well was I creative as a child I think mostly in a playful manner as an only child you kind of have to let your imagination run wild ah speak very candidly I don’t think I was.

10:10.47
charukaarora
Click finish.

10:17.81
Nivedita
I was never a ah I don’t think I ever had the ah patience to learn how to draw paint. But I think I’ve actually like grown up consuming.

10:29.26
charukaarora
Yeah, yeah.

10:36.85
Nivedita
A lot of like just like visuals in like travel magazinegraines. And yeah, yeah, and also like traveling a lot like my parents love traveling. So I’ve like traveled a lot I’ve been very nacky to travel a lot and I think that was um.

10:40.20
charukaarora
Um, yeah, and you were born in D I mean it’s.

10:50.69
charukaarora
Wow.

10:56.37
Nivedita
I think I was very inspired sort of by the beautiful photo stories that are in Lonely planet that are National Geographic and I was like Wow I Want to be able to shoot this and see these places and I think that’s where it sort of began I actually started doing commercial work in high school like I was doing that commercial photo work from I think.

11:04.47
charukaarora
Statistics specific.

11:15.35
charukaarora
Um, oh Wow Very entrepreneur since the beginning.

11:15.98
Nivedita
Class 8 or 9 Ah it was never run I suppose yeah or it was just moving mischievous and trying to not go to school and trying to like be like okay I can’t do math I can’t do math I have like this photo assignment I definitely did that through all my 3 years and at.

11:24.98
charukaarora
No no I don’t think it’s that.

11:33.63
charukaarora
Um.

11:35.93
Nivedita
University because it was a great excuse to sort of not um, not go to college Honestly I’ve actually had a couple of photography.

11:44.83
charukaarora
You know what here real This is very unfair if you would a lot of kids would actually make excuse if they wanted to escape something they would like have a bad stomachk or would fall off Wouldsley You made it.

11:58.50
Nivedita
Yeah, but that’s really that’s really boring like I have I I don’t sit at home And yeah I Ah I don’t want to sit at home and do nothing like that’s that’s just not whom I am as a person so I was like okay, great now, let me like ah.

12:03.21
charukaarora
You were chaing your curiosity. Yeah yeah.

12:15.79
Nivedita
You know I really enjoy doing it I Still very much enjoy taking photos although now mostly like for myself and I get the time. Um I Ah yeah I’ve actually had a couple of photography exhibitions Also ah and I think that’s.

12:30.55
charukaarora
Feel. Well.

12:34.40
Nivedita
So Auto fair like my interest or like my engagement with a like like with visuals visual aesthetics began because I was curious I like okay, cool like where can I see more photographs like who are the famous photographers. What kind of work are they doing. Ah.

12:47.80
charukaarora
Yeah.

12:51.73
Nivedita
I Thought sort of started there by like going to galleries and museums. Um, and I think there’s like a very um, there’s always like a creative process right? like photography is just a medium So it’s very easy to ah then sort of get like swept away into everything else. Also.

13:09.26
charukaarora
Night.

13:11.29
Nivedita
Um, yeah I think that’s mostly been the journey I was actually in New York for a summer because I was I wanted to study photo at Tish and I ended up taking this class by chance which was a galleries and museums class and in my brain it was. The the class description set that you’re going to do visits and I was like okay, great if I’m in New York I don’t want to be inside a room I just want to be out and about and that was the reason I took that class and so yeah I mean I’d always been visiting museums when I was traveling.

13:32.75
charukaarora
A. Yes, yes, okay.

13:50.35
Nivedita
But or even the ones like here right? and I’ve been in the in new museum when Calkara so famous. Um, but I think just sort of having that exposure and like doing that class with it was an introduction to contemporary art class and just sort of having somebody explain.

14:04.74
charukaarora
How we are you? okay.

14:09.51
Nivedita
I think I was 18 or 19 Yeah, ah so having somebody like sort of tell you like do the storytelling I think it’s very engulfing so ah yeah I think that’s.

14:22.23
charukaarora
Um, yeah, tell me something did you have like any creative influences. Um in like if from maybe your parents will are they like creative or art influence or like you know who was your like introduction point.

14:25.96
Nivedita
That was pre ahid choosing topress. These.

14:40.82
charukaarora
Ah, it just happened. Okay, so they have no interest at least not at the time you were okay.

14:41.17
Nivedita
I Think it just happened. No they collect a little bit. Ah I mean we constantly fight about what they collect but I don’t think that’s called collecting but that’s fine. That’s on them. But.

14:56.52
charukaarora
Um.

15:00.39
Nivedita
Um, but yeah I think I think they are like I think I ought to them to have taken me to some great museums. Ah when I was very young like I think I’ve been to like I think the first ham and of museum months maybe 7 or 8 So yeah.

15:09.58
charukaarora
He asked.

15:16.35
charukaarora
Um, oh wow. Yeah yeah, yes.

15:20.20
Nivedita
Yeah I saw that they’re not but they’re not. They’re not particularly ah, creatively inclined in the sense of like create. They’re not creators. Um, but yeah I don’t know I think you like I feel like when you’re an only child and like you’re left alone to your devices you find. Like you find certain things you’re curious about and then you sort of yeah I yeah I remember like um photo editing like loan like in like class 8 or like 7 and like.

15:42.00
charukaarora
Yeah, you Chase curiosity.

15:51.87
charukaarora
Um.

15:57.40
Nivedita
I had like this small like sort of compact camera and photo editing on like some Microsoft software. So now it all just feels too ancient and I I want to clarify that I’m to all the people listening that I guys I’m only 29 so like maybe I sound like a relic when I say all this.

16:04.30
charukaarora
Um, ah yes, do you know.

16:16.15
Nivedita
But but yeah I think it’s um I think visuals like whether it is yeah I think it tells a certain story certain manner. Um.

16:25.77
charukaarora
That’s the language that you were so needed with let’s say so you are a creative I mean I think our definitions of being creative the way that you were born and brought up a lot of times traditionally was very very naive and small like you know you can.

16:39.10
Nivedita
Ah, yeah, ah absolutely.

16:42.90
charukaarora
You are a creative unless you like you know if you’re drawing something painting or like even like like when I took classes I do classes like you know our teachers would force us to like you know draw certain way color within the lines and as much as I appreciate all those technical skills.

16:44.91
Nivedita
Um, absolutely I I think those are boxes.

17:01.62
charukaarora
But a lot of people are do things differently are built differently and I feel like those definitions really in lineate people who are trying to express themselves differently and create differently and we like we still have a long way to go from that.

17:14.81
Nivedita
yeah yeah I think ah and I mean now with like the metaverse and like and Fds I think the mediums of how you yeah I think the mediums are going to keep evolving you know, ah and create like artists.

17:21.74
charukaarora
Yeah, is way more confusing now. Yeah.

17:33.37
Nivedita
Are going to tell their stories. So I think even if it’s um, maybe somebody is like ah like say for example, vennita works with like a lot of like C Saamic and sculpture and you’re telling a story through it. So um, yeah I think I don’t think there are boundaries didn’t.

17:46.40
charukaarora
Um, yeah. Yes, now. But you tell me something then how did you get into how did you decide that you wanted to get into the museum and the gallery world and art history and all of that and then we’ll go to how from there.

17:53.80
Nivedita
In my in my head. It’s not a boundary.

18:08.24
charukaarora
You came to watch for.

18:09.70
Nivedita
I mean like I said I think like taking that class at n my you was quite monumental in sort of experiencing the gallery in museum world in New York I was still unsure of whether I want you to be a photograph photographer but then I um.

18:22.53
charukaarora
Apples.

18:28.19
Nivedita
Ah, large part of my like master’s program was object-based ah Christie’s is an auction house. It’s ah we were looking at and studying some of the most valuable objects in the world. Um, at least like publicly known and.

18:39.76
charukaarora
Um, yeah.

18:47.30
Nivedita
I Um I think it was a ah I think coming from like a business sort of family I Always knew that I would in some way do something entrepreneurial whether it was like that I know whether it was later.

19:01.64
charukaarora
Um, yeah, yeah, um.

19:06.10
Nivedita
And I sort of I think it was just I think it’s all I call it all a very happy coincidence I had no I had no plan I was very sure I wanted to leave Calcata I was like I’m done I’m leaving this is great I’m gonna do some.

19:08.94
charukaarora
Um, a.

19:16.92
charukaarora
So you had never an intention of like staying back or like you know, um, working in the Us just you know big Maybe settling there.

19:26.21
Nivedita
No absolutely like after I finished my master’s I did it in London I was very sure I’m never coming back I was like this is great I love the city I love this like sort of gallery and auction world. But you know like when I move back.

19:34.95
charukaarora
Yes.

19:43.43
Nivedita
And this was before like my visa was over and things like that I think there’s a um when something doesn’t exist. There is an opportunity there and I think that there is value and sort of ah learning and being able to like sort of.

19:51.86
charukaarora
Um, yeah, yeah.

20:01.67
Nivedita
Come back and add to the ecosystem we have some great museums and you have some great galleries and there’s some amazing programming happening on I mean in the artfis coming up next week and I think the fair is as good as any international fair. But um, there’s just so much space for growth.

20:09.70
charukaarora
Um, yeah, yeah.

20:20.89
Nivedita
That I think it’s a more sort of like exciting journey to beyond to create something out of nothing I Still think that we are very I’m very far from having created something substantial but it’s exciting to be on that journey. Um.

20:28.22
charukaarora
Yeah.

20:36.46
charukaarora
Um, yeah, absolutely.

20:39.36
Nivedita
I think London New York are very mature markets that way. Um, but this is a blank slate so it just allows for so much more. So I think that.

20:47.33
charukaarora
Yes, and also I am contributing to your own um heritage I think that really matters at least? no.

20:54.70
Nivedita
Yeah, absolutely I think there’s I think it’s very, ah, it’s satisfying in a different way to be able to like create something you know? Ah so yeah I think there was no plan at all like I feel like.

21:02.10
charukaarora
Um, yeah, yeah.

21:12.46
Nivedita
Anybody that like goes to college and thinks that all these people who are like doing things in their life have like a life plan out I mean just to speak for myself. That’s really not true. You just have to like drive a couple of things out and see what works best for you I have like I started art for.

21:16.91
charukaarora
5 high risk.

21:25.65
charukaarora
Yeah.

21:30.93
Nivedita
Because I was bored I was like I was out of college. You know I started it as an instagram I started as an Instagram account because I was bored and I was like I I had actually started working with this art advice to called go John’s we were going to launch in India.

21:31.79
charukaarora
Okay, yes, let’s go to that Then how how did it happen. What were you doing well like at that point.

21:47.14
charukaarora
Yeah.

21:50.87
Nivedita
We pushed the launch because of demonetization and it was that same month. So I was free and that really that was very stressful I was 24 and I was free. So ah i’m.

21:52.10
charukaarora
Oh goodness.

22:02.86
charukaarora
Yeah I think this is also a very important point to talk about because you know in the culture that we live in in the constantly hustling hustling and we feel like um. You know oh I’m out of college now I need to do this. Oh I’m out of school now I need to go to College. Oh I don’t have a job now I need to have another. Okay.

22:17.72
Nivedita
Perhaps I’m not the I don’t think I’m the right spokesperson for saying calm down because I haven’t learned that yet and I still think that I’m very much a part of that toxic hustle culture to myself at least where I’m like oh you must hustle. But like I. I’ve always like done like I’ve always been very sort of active whether it was like things in school things and University Ah I don’t remember just being free. So I think I really struggled with like not having routine and purpose and that was one of the reasons I It was very difficult.

22:48.50
charukaarora
Yeah, and for you it must be even hard at that point then.

22:56.54
Nivedita
So anybody who is on this podcast expecting some kind of crazy like I had this life plan and I know what I’m doing 5 years from today I don’t know what I’m eating for dinner. So it’s I think like this.

23:08.71
charukaarora
We days of surprise.

23:13.35
Nivedita
I Mean as ah as an entrepreneur I definitely is because you don’t know the problem you’re going to have to solve and deal with when you wake up tomorrow and I think that’s part of the excitement but starting artrovo was a complete side hustle Fluke I Just wanted to sort of keep engaging with.

23:14.91
charukaarora
No.

23:21.77
charukaarora
Yeah.

23:32.72
Nivedita
Art I wanted to talk about it I wanted to when I moved back I wasn’t able to find what was going on I was like how do I know what’s happening in the galleries in the museums where do I check like if I have to go and check every gallery to see what’s on. It’s not happening.

23:39.67
charukaarora
Um, yeah, yeah, you’ll have to like manually call everyone especially being in Calcutta and now you know taking what’s happening or what’s up with.

23:50.48
Nivedita
And nobody.

23:55.70
Nivedita
Even in Bombay and Dali even in bomba and Dali right? like everywhere wherever you are. It’s so tough to know what’s going on so I was like well there has to be 1 place where you can find this information so I was like okay great I’m going to start putting these posts up.

23:56.48
charukaarora
Ah, things in Bomby over dead. Yeah.

24:13.31
Nivedita
On my so on like a different social media. Ah I mean I think like if I have to like a Youtube complete gen z like language I probably started it as a fin stuff because my friends were like stop home.

24:23.21
charukaarora
Wow! What is that.

24:27.60
Nivedita
Apparently in Instagram that is like a fake Instagram is a fin star. Yeah I yeah gen zs I have their own language in their own world. Yeah yeah, so.

24:29.99
charukaarora
Um, Wow I didn’t know that I am sure a lot of our listeners also wouldn’t know that because we don’t they don’t hang around here with us at least.

24:44.66
Nivedita
Yeah, yeah, we’re too work for them. But they all do this finta thing where they have 1 account that’s like for everybody I guess and a finta that’s for some people I don’t know I don’t understand it I started I art for because my because my I know because my friends were like stop posting.

24:51.96
charukaarora
Um, oh God So like work.

25:01.44
Nivedita
So much art all the time every day is I said okay fine I want start another account and only the people who want to know about art can like look at it I essentially need it. It was me giving myself something to do and think out. Um, so I’m very grateful that it has sort of serves.

25:03.84
charukaarora
Okay.

25:12.80
charukaarora
Um, yes.

25:20.54
Nivedita
Fun role into what it is today but till like 2019 late twenty eighteen when I was like okay I think maybe this can become a platform now right? It was just me posting like images of art and like some stories not even events just like oh this is a cool like I don’t know.

25:31.26
charukaarora
Events. Oh.

25:39.20
Nivedita
Ah I some ah someone said me something today but like maybe this is like a sahaja hall work and like this is what I think about it of this what it’s about and this show is happening nothing more I didn’t even know who looking at it. Yeah, it was it was.

25:39.58
charukaarora
At work or something like were you carrying more books. Okay, okay, but was it called hard forward at that point. How did you come up with that name.

25:58.68
Nivedita
Well actually like I wanted somebody to make a logo for me and they sort of helped me come up with some names. Um and I was like it needs to be I need to in some way it needs like read passion like passion for the arts. So yeah, and also I.

25:58.73
charukaarora
What did it like how did it come? um.

26:03.67
charukaarora
I will give.

26:18.45
Nivedita
Particularly like this because the acronym is Af and I thought that was very playful so sort of stuck with this name. The logo is something I made like on a piece of tissue paper. So it’s still something We’re using. It’s been up in my office softboard.

26:21.89
charukaarora
Yeah, yeah.

26:29.51
charukaarora
Um, okay, yes.

26:37.44
Nivedita
The same piece of tissue paper. So yeah, like I it’s an in a very true sense like a garage startup. So yeah, but yeah I think that um.

26:44.47
charukaarora
Um.

26:54.17
Nivedita
19 when we started the platform it was still. It was a very small team. It was like me and 2 other people where we were like okay, let’s do this content is do this design. Let’s push this out right? We’ll see where it goes and the next year was the pandemic and now here we are.

27:10.40
charukaarora
So at that point you were still. You just started this as a side hussle and then now it’s it’s gone like it’s become a life of its own. How did how to do? Um I kind of want to ask? is you know.

27:15.33
Nivedita
Yeah.

27:21.31
Nivedita
Um, yeah.

27:29.67
charukaarora
Starting out of a whim like you know something when you don’t have an intent and then you know there comes a way lot of struggles and you know questions to be answered and things to be discovered when you you know, um, like any other creative process I Completely believe Creative Entrepreneurs entrepreneurship. Is very much alike and that’s what we also speak about on the podcast like being an artist bringing an entrepreneur very very similar experiences. Um, just I think we all create in different forms and shapes and because I experience both of those very closely I feel like I ideally associate with them. What have. But how did you like when you started this account then you thought Okay, now you need like a separate page and then how did you find your win. What were your biggest troubleples growing art forever.

28:21.29
Nivedita
Um, interesting I think ah I think it was quite like freeflowing the first one month and a half years. It was not a business. It was just me posting things on an Instagram account. So I don’t think it’s fair to really like.

28:31.97
charukaarora
Um, yeah.

28:40.46
Nivedita
Not assessing it I was not ah struggling I think it gave me a sense of direction and a sense of purpose that I needed but moving on from there I think ah I am what I call myself a non tech.

28:59.48
charukaarora
Um, okay yeah.

29:00.37
Nivedita
Founder and I think that like sort of understanding technology and sort of the rapid way in which it has always evolved and especially with the pandemic I think keeping up with that is very tough I think sort of I Truly believe that everything that you do.

29:08.10
charukaarora
Um, yeah.

29:19.55
Nivedita
Outside of work inspires and influences what you do at work. So I think that that work life balance is really difficult on a personal level to be sort of able to say that Okay I’m on vacation and looking at these trees is as important as like replying to this.

29:22.62
charukaarora
Right.

29:37.34
Nivedita
Email So I want to put my phone off. Um, so I think that as a founder like I think that’s something I struggle with because you constantly feel the sense of responsibility and guilt that I have not replied to this email or like my client is expecting this from me or.

29:37.36
charukaarora
Um, yeah.

29:46.52
charukaarora
Yes.

29:55.48
Nivedita
Is it really? okay to say no to something just because I decided to take time off. But I think that all of this is a learning curve and certainly getting better at it that okay I’m here I’m going to live in this forest for two days and switch off the world because.

30:02.55
charukaarora
Yes.

30:12.82
charukaarora
Right.

30:12.86
Nivedita
I need it for when I go back. So I think one is like definitely the sort of balance and the second thing is the I think the technology and also I’m slowly sort of realizing how difficult it is to have to like. Bring people onto a team wherein. They need to sort of also buy into your vision. It’s not a traditional. Ah.

30:38.20
charukaarora
Yeah. Night.

30:48.10
Nivedita
It’s not a traditional job. It’s not a marketing agency. It’s not ah, it’s not a product you’re selling. This is not. You’re not working at Itc right? or you’re not working at a bank. You’re not working at a Kpmg you have to buy into the vision. You have to believe in ah the company in the in what you’re trying to achieve.

30:49.13
charukaarora
Um, yeah, yes, right.

31:07.87
charukaarora
Yes, that’s true.

31:07.91
Nivedita
To be able to give it your best and I think like bringing people on who truly believe in that is tough. Ah so yeah.

31:15.82
charukaarora
None I agree I think one of the biggest struggles is like E I think teams are collaborators like in any collaboration as a creator you don’t have um, similar visions if you know that’s let’s like.

31:24.23
Nivedita
Yeah.

31:33.30
charukaarora
1 of the very very important prerequisite that we all and also I think it’s it’s it’s important for all of us because how do even then have fun together if ah, you don’t feel a line and there’s what is even a you know what are we even making if you’re not enjoying the process I like I’m someone who’s totally.

31:41.36
Nivedita
Yeah.

31:51.22
charukaarora
Everything about process. Ah because ah, how fancy the destination maybe be if the process is a pain I probably wouldn’t even make make the start but I mean starty I mean I I would begin but I there needs to be like the fun. Like you need to enjoy it needs to give your purpose. It need to like fill you up make you excited a challenge makes me excited a lot of time like a problem something New. So Yeah I think that’s really where is art over right Now. Do you want to talk about that What you’re doing. What’s your goal like if I were to say you know big dream. What do you want to make Um, let’s say no not in like a investor quest like a typical one but just your your vision of let’s say what art cover needs to be in the next.

32:37.60
Nivedita
You can you can throw the investor question at me ah very often. Ah social things I do feel like Shark tank. So go for it. Um.

32:45.81
charukaarora
no no no I don’t have I absolutely have no none of those I want to go for the emotional side. You know I really want to hear your dream of making what art for work could be in the next five years in the next couple of years or your ultimate dream or something like. And where you are today like both of them. Let’s let’s hear the you know from your heart what that is for you.

33:10.75
Nivedita
Um I think I strongly believe in ah sort of the reason that I started this which is to make the arts accessible and to make it engaging make it fun make it interactive I think that’s sort of a part that I would. Continue to be on and that today it’s Instagram it’s our platform. It’s the games that we work on tomorrow. It would be something else right? We’ve I don’t know what shape or form it will take I don’t but the idea is.

33:44.75
charukaarora
Um, yeah, yeah.

33:48.87
Nivedita
To reach as many people as we can and to sort of understand user behavior and understand audience engagement with the arts and see how we can push those limits and push those boundaries by using technology as a Backic vehicle.

33:54.67
charukaarora
Yeah.

34:08.80
Nivedita
So I mean when we started when I started in 2019 it was. We were not talking about the meta was now we are so we want we want to see okay, what what’s next right? it at some point at two years ago it was ah.

34:15.12
charukaarora
Yeah.

34:21.30
charukaarora
Maybe art forward is next.

34:26.71
Nivedita
It was like 2020 we did this ar installation of a museum on a street in a street festival and we had like in one day I think like some 10000 people line up to watch it. Um, that was very very fulfilling because we were like what’s tech.

34:30.34
charukaarora
Um, yeah.

34:38.70
charukaarora
Yeah.

34:46.31
Nivedita
Was traditionally technically considered like high fine art is at this is at the street first world and you have people from like age of 5 to 75 asking us questions they’re like vices banana. So expensive. What is the value of yes.

34:52.50
charukaarora
Um, yeah.

35:01.52
charukaarora
Um, that’s a common question for a question.

35:05.85
Nivedita
Absolutely and the the thing is you know you have someone’s interest when they ask the question and I think that’s the ultimate sort of win. Um, so whether it’s like 1 year from today five years from today I not to to not go down like a business like.

35:09.72
charukaarora
Um, yeah, yeah.

35:23.32
charukaarora
Yeah, yeah.

35:25.16
Nivedita
Plan at all I think we want to keep pushing those boundaries and seeing how we can whether it’s in India whether it’s internationally I don’t know where the world is going to take us. Um, but but yeah I think we would like I would consistently like to be focused.

35:28.80
charukaarora
Yeah.

35:34.34
charukaarora
I have.

35:44.50
Nivedita
Um, on this spot.

35:46.42
charukaarora
And okay I love that in this further in this conversation. Can you talk a little bit about you just touched upon you know the callta streetar project you do if weekend of projects. You know you do a lot of those things which are. I really wish to be in bomby to be a part of those I miss your birthday once I I think yeah because of the pandemic I don’t know something I maybe I was just traveling or witness I’m really excited. Can you share one of if can you talk about 1 of the favorite projects out of every project that you’ve done something.

36:09.67
Nivedita
We have some we have some exciting things planned this year I don’t want to see what it is but we have some exciting things planned. So. I love to go I love all of them I can’t just unfair.

36:24.17
charukaarora
Julie thank you? Ah, 1 minute we’ll talk about all but 1 of your favorite that you thoroughly enjoyed 1 chose this one.

36:32.40
Nivedita
See I enjoy all of them I truly do I was um so recently we worked on this project where we developed an art education platform for someone else.

36:48.10
charukaarora
Yeah art in the magazine.

36:52.35
Nivedita
Ah, yeah, and I think that was ah it was quite challenging when we took it up. Ah, we’ve done like consulting projects strategy projects which we do sort of on the side response something we really like talk about we want to be content focused but people get in touch with us and we do it. Um, but I think what was very interesting with this specific ah project was that art India has a very very ah reputed legacy already and I think we were what we had to be really careful about is how we sort of deal with that and translate it to the digital.

37:20.95
charukaarora
Um, yeah.

37:30.65
Nivedita
Ah, it it obviously cannot be completely cut off from the brand that they already created So I think sort of that um, looking at it from that perspective was very interesting Also maybe because it’s one of the most recent projects we’ve done.

37:44.36
charukaarora
Um, yeah yeah I saw all I was Biden just interesting.

37:50.62
Nivedita
Ah, but from like a ah thank you. But I think from like a fun ah like from the fun perspective I think the street art festival that we did was the most fun because.

38:01.65
charukaarora
Sons. 10.

38:07.87
Nivedita
Yeah, because I think there’s a lot of see we’re a digital platform So we don’t get that opportunity very much to sort of engage with our audience in real life right? We do a lot of events even though we do events but this was a very like.

38:15.92
charukaarora
Now right.

38:25.77
Nivedita
This was not a art for event that somebody who knows about art for has signed up to come for. They were just there and mean and for a lot of them. It was their first interaction with arthobo so just to sort of see how they were engaging with us and the questions that they were asking.

38:28.36
charukaarora
Yeah, right.

38:44.82
Nivedita
And a lot of them were like great now we want to know more about art so like okay, amazing. We have achieved what we sort of set out to do.

38:46.67
charukaarora
Yeah, that win. Lovely I think I love that I think that’s that’s also one of the most every time we hear from someone and I think that’s something you’ve rightly put you as a digital platform you pushed so much of content so much of effort out there. And even though there’s so many like thousands of people who consume that use that but you often can’t hear from all of those people you don’t know all of them and the moment you know you get the opportunity to put a face um face to someone who responds to your work. And consumes that and you know loves that I think that I don’t think that healing gets old anytime because it just it just motivates you so much more and it really like you know what? you’re doing is making sense and is actually serving someone. Helping them in whatever little way possible. Okay.

39:44.78
Nivedita
Um, yeah, yeah I hope ah I hope you’re able to continue doing some of that thinking pieces haven’t managed all of it. But yeah I hope we can continue to be.

39:51.80
charukaarora
Um, I’m sure you will and no no I am sure this is a beginning of many I will will come back here and talk about way more successes struggles but we keep going.

40:05.74
Nivedita
Yeah, hopefully and gets crossed.

40:09.90
charukaarora
Okay, tell me what how does like work look like for you now. How do you um work How does how do you create this content these events. Um, you know how do you keep up with all of these things.

40:23.84
Nivedita
My Google calendar. Ah it. Ah.

40:25.76
charukaarora
Um, what is like a typical day. Um, are you do have like are you all working virtually are you working. Ah.

40:33.88
Nivedita
Yes, so ahova is ah we’re now 10 people everybody is remote. Um, we’re sort of all over the country which is right from Rajasthan to asamm to Bombay and the ba khan.

40:39.16
charukaarora
A wow.

40:53.35
Nivedita
Or Bangalow Calkata Puny Artfas everywhere. The team is sort of from everywhere. So we start our day actually with a morning stand-up meeting so that everybody can say hello to each other and sort of be aligned as to what’s going on what’s important. What are the priorities.

41:03.49
charukaarora
Yeah.

41:13.20
Nivedita
We see each other also a lot like when we are like you know, currently travel’s been open so we’ve seen each other. Um, but I think that because it’s like there’s a certain like creative process and a brainstorming involved I think what we like. 1 thing that we miss out on is sort of doing that together. So we have to coordinate a little bit digitally but um, ah I think yeah, we are mostly stuck on I travel a lot for work so that’s 1 thing which is very exciting because that allows to like.

41:33.40
charukaarora
Yes.

41:50.50
Nivedita
See shows me people. Um, but otherwise I’m in front of this desktop nine a m to about Eight p M every day sitting here right in this spot. Um, yeah, absolutely this is me. Um.

41:54.76
charukaarora
Um, got you right? right? at it.

42:07.69
Nivedita
I bumped into somebody last weekend when I was traveling and we go both like you look familiar and it turned out to be an artist and she’s like you know what? like I’ve seen your Instagram live and I’ve seen like that your like wooden library like background I was like oh my god this is the worst but okay, thank you, it was like I need to change like.

42:19.86
charukaarora
Um, you get the? yeah.

42:24.59
Nivedita
Ah, you change like my where I’m sitting. Ah, but yeah I think work that way is like pretty exciting I think what’s um, at least as like the founder is you don’t know what’s coming up, you don’t know whether you have to like onboard an intern that day you don’t know whether you’re like speaking to 2 clients you don’t know whether you’re in an interview.

42:34.56
charukaarora
Yeah.

42:43.63
Nivedita
You don’t know whether you’re like speaking to somebody from a completely different industry because you’re trying to do something with them. So I think that’s very exciting to sort of be doing all these different things. Um, and that’s what keeps me going as well. Ah.

42:55.91
charukaarora
Yeah.

42:58.71
Nivedita
It allows to like learn from so many people also on the job because obviously I don’t know everything. Um, and yeah I think that’s what keeps it sort of fresh.

43:02.40
charukaarora
Absolutely lovely. Okay, 1 very important question before we go into the rapid file. Okay, kind of something that I’m sure you won’t be expecting. Do you have any creative deans. Ah. Of your own that you would want to pursue at any time like being be a photographer like making do you indulge in making yours yourself.

43:22.40
Nivedita
Well I haven’t thought about it. Yeah I would I would love it like I like I paint ah I do paint sometimes but it’s terrible I’m not an artist I want to clarify. Um, yes, no no.

43:33.80
charukaarora
Um, oh Wow we all are artists aren’t we you meeting hard for our listen. We just all create differently.

43:41.92
Nivedita
Please I don’t want to disrespect the artists that I speak to and work with it’s terrible I do not um, so yeah, ah so yeah I do and maybe I don’t know I’ve I haven’t thought about it I think it’s ah I think feral fee is like a bit of a quiet moment for me. It’s like it’s It’s like this moment of solitude of me in my space wherever it is in the world. So I think that’s what I like about it and like sure I would love to sort of I think my ideal one month two months three if I’m lucky.

44:00.62
charukaarora
The end.

44:14.10
charukaarora
Um I.

44:15.61
Nivedita
Of my team is like listening to this and they’re like we want to go shoot her. What does she mean she wants to take three months off but like that would be my idea but to be like moved like go us off and like take 4 roads and speak to no one and throw all my devices away. This is my dream to be device.

44:25.58
charukaarora
Oh Wow Oh I’m sorry you can do that I’m sure that’ll come come. It will it will it will.

44:37.45
Nivedita
Someday one day. Yeah I think that would be like my sort of that’s my only creative dream to sort of create body work.

44:43.94
charukaarora
I am now that is out in the universe. You said it out loud I’m pretty sure and when you please do that? Will you let me know you’re doing That’s so I would also celebrate with you.

44:54.10
Nivedita
Um, I am going to tell nobody these dreams but nobody will ever know where I you might bump into me. But yeah, yeah for sure for sure.

45:02.39
charukaarora
No, no write me when you’re back. Okay, tell me when you’re back, but tell me. Okay, so that I know one of our um dreams have been like our conversation has been manifested into reality.

45:15.92
Nivedita
Okay, I’m I don’t know if this can be cut out of this podcast but I actually had a meeting schedule you for 4 15 I’m gonna push that give me a second.

45:21.50
charukaarora
Yaya.

45:25.13
charukaarora
Okay, ah we just have a wrap with 5 if you want I think you will be able to go by 154

45:35.29
Nivedita
Um, okay I’m going to. Ah.

45:42.34
Nivedita
Um, and let me just ah, move it around.

46:48.74
Nivedita
Yeah, sorry I’m back I’m ah ready my hour ready myself for this rapid fire that you have for me.

46:59.59
charukaarora
Set your son.

47:02.13
Nivedita
Um, there’s tons of screens of me on this video I don’t know how you guys edit I don’t know if this is going to be out anywhere I hope it isn’t but.

47:10.53
charukaarora
No, no, no, we all all of this will be gone. Our editor is a Magician he’ll he’ll work his magic on it and sound perfect. Okay, okay.

47:20.56
Nivedita
Okay, okay, great. Okay I’m ready. Let’s go.

47:27.60
charukaarora
Okay, so are you ready for the rapid fire now. Okay, so this is this will be quick. There’s no right and wrong just give me whatever comes to you first. Okay, that’s all and this has to be quick. Okay, okay so here we go 1 thing you want to convey.

47:28.86
Nivedita
I Think so yes.

47:47.60
charukaarora
Through your work in the arts.

47:49.61
Nivedita
Um, that art for what was transformative.

47:55.91
charukaarora
Um, ah what’s that 1 word that disgues you the best.

48:05.33
Nivedita
Fubel.

48:07.80
charukaarora
But if you but have a studio slash office wherever you work anywhere in the world where would it be Okay, um your biggest source of inspiration.

48:16.85
Nivedita
Berlin.

48:26.20
Nivedita
I think creative entrepreneurs in general I don’t have 1 person that comes to mind my father works really hard. He works on Sundays so sure. Hopefully he’ll never hear this he should never know this since we fight.

48:29.28
charukaarora
Love no.

48:38.92
charukaarora
I like I want him to hear this. He should be very proud of you. Okay, who’s your favorite woman artist any any point of time and just any.

48:43.65
Nivedita
Um, so yeah, maybe oh this is too tough I This is too much pressure I’m sorry ah zarena.

48:58.88
charukaarora
Very well said. Ah, who’s your go to person when you’re in trouble or in need of advice.

49:05.11
Nivedita
Either of my parents.

49:07.80
charukaarora
Um, okay, this is a little more than 1 word. So you’re allowed. Um as a creative entrepreneur as a creator yourself can you share like 1 moment out of many I’m sure you must have had something that made you feel like you know. You really cherish that experience and feel grateful for what you’re doing any any hour of

49:26.63
Nivedita
Ah, well, okay, most recently this call was interning with us during the first year of the pandemic I bumped into her I’d never seen her because we were digital and she was like hey you know what? like she was starting marketing in the us and she was like she’s just like was like hey you know what I took an art history class. Offer I intern with you guys and it was for marketing and now it’s my I’ve taken it up as a minor in college. It’s like amazing so I was very like that that felt really good.

49:50.59
charukaarora
Oh wow, yeah I’m sure. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, if you were to meet younger in the age without today. What advice would you give her.

50:02.97
Nivedita
Have more fun life is going to get serious anyway.

50:07.15
charukaarora
Love that? Ah advice always love that advice. Okay shout out to an artist you you are currently loving especially on social media.

50:17.66
Nivedita
On Social and media. Ah.

50:21.57
charukaarora
Talk about the digital Age. Any.

50:28.98
Nivedita
Wow this is tough I’m you have me this is not rapid anymore I’m sorry I think I think Sam Pulaur is really good at social media.

50:37.44
charukaarora
Ah, yes, yes, yes.

50:43.84
Nivedita
I Think he’s great at social media. But I’m trying to think of like somebody maybe younger or I think fisak artres work is very good for social media I don’t know that makes sense. Yeah.

50:55.52
charukaarora
Know it does it does I think you’re right? Okay, last question as a creative entrepreneur as a boon entrepreneur. What’s it 1 1 or 2 words advice that you would like to give to you know people who are listening to this episode who. You know who come behind you are are there with you.

51:18.73
Nivedita
Advice you mean like to younger people or to work the I sorry I didn’t get your question who my wisdom Ah, it’s okay to not. It’s It’s okay to not have it figured out. Nobody has it figured out.

51:22.36
charukaarora
Um, just your your wisdom share your wisdom with us any advice that you would like to share that’s that’sgraded by.

51:35.81
Nivedita
Like nobody I’m not just saying this is like some Instagram like post from like a random like quote account like nobody has it figured out. Everybody’s winging it. It’s okay to wing it and you will know when you’ve stopped wing it and then you’ll realize oh now I’m bringing something else and you know you’re on the right path.

51:45.83
charukaarora
Yeah.

51:51.87
charukaarora
To yet? yes.

51:55.17
Nivedita
Fine. So the time you’re an honest person. Ah, that’s all that matters like I think principles are important and I don’t by winging it I do not mean cheat people at all. But we’re all figuring it out and I think that ah for all of the times that I may have like been like younger and thought. Oh This person’s older. They know what’s up they know what’s going on nobody knows what’s up nobody knows what’s going on.

52:14.85
charukaarora
Um, yeah, bang on bang gone. Oh my goodness. Maybe you thought this was so much fun I really had a great time talking to you and I really look forward to meeting you at a yard fair for sure. Oh.

52:25.46
Nivedita
You know me too. Yeah me read would be great I This was my first podcast I don’t know if I’ve like ah I don’t know if like this is okay, great amazing I hope I can be hard.

52:33.40
charukaarora
Keeping up in the style you need it. New need. Oh no, no that that that that our editor will need it I’m sure so you to invite about that.

52:44.90
Nivedita
With my airports of the great poor thing. Thank you in advance.

52:52.81
charukaarora
Okay, before I let you go I have one last question to ask? Do you have anything new any new project you want to share with us people are listening to this also where they can find you art for about or anything else that you feel you want to share any new upcoming project anything they can discover a lot of our audience are. Pace all over the world us India New Zealand Australia so I think.

53:15.31
Nivedita
Um, well we’re actually currently working on something called the art for a warehouse and we’re ah you’re going to launch soon. Maybe in the next month month and a half. Essentially we always felt that there was this like very crucial.

53:22.58
charukaarora
Okay.

53:34.50
Nivedita
Connect an angle missing on art 4 which was an ability for us to connect with artists and we want to create this like space for artists to be able to like host their exhibitions online on their own and be assured of like. Eyeballs. Ah so I think it’s taking sort of the shape and form of a warehouse. Um, and that’s all I want to say at the moment we’ll see where it’s at a ah month from today and yeah, we want to be able to like sort of ah give.

53:57.76
charukaarora
Oh Wow lovely.

54:12.82
Nivedita
Currently like a lot of ah of course we do content which is all focused on like artists work. But we want to be able to do more and sort of close that loop for them and yeah, so watch out for more.

54:22.46
charukaarora
Um, yeah, absolute dar I ah so agree and I’m so excited with a very few opportunities in India we’ve been doing online shows. First time we’re doing and I love working with artists and you know curating shows and curators and like. Putting these shows together and we’re also doing like a first solo show and it’s always such such a fulfilling experience to see a closely work with artists and you know you know so like you know with our shows. Also we produce videos and like stuff like that and it’s it’s so fulfilling. And I’m sure like I am so excited because more and more opportunities like these need to come up like I don’t think they will ever be enough ever be enough for all of us.

55:04.98
Nivedita
Okay, it’s not a gallery. It’s not an online gallery. Um, we are not looking at curating. We’re trying to like explore a different model. We want to be more fluid and we wanted to be more democratic. Um, so.

55:16.31
charukaarora
Yes, or loved that.

55:23.31
Nivedita
We’ll see it’s still shaping up. Maybe it’s a bit soon to speak about it. But we’ll see what comes on it.

55:28.15
charukaarora
I’m excited and you see anyway as long as it’s giving more and more people access to more opportunities I Think it’s always a great idea.

55:34.86
Nivedita
Yeah, so that’s where we were at. That’s the thing we’re most excited about right now.

55:38.45
charukaarora
I Can’t wait to see okay where can people find you share. You know your content support you you know all of that that.

55:45.55
Nivedita
So of course artflow was on Instagram as art dot 4 that’s where most of our fun content is but of course our platform which is http://www.artfo.com has so much more content. We have an editorial. We have an entire game section. We have the persona quiz which I think everybody should take it’s fun. It’s quick. It’s easy tells you a little bit about your art persona. It’s a fun find like 1 of those oh great and.

56:14.45
charukaarora
Yeah I did that I had fun.

56:21.62
Nivedita
So yeah I think you can subscribe to us. We send out emailers. We send out content on our emailers. You can figure out what’s happening in your city as well on our platform if you want to go visit. Um per show. So yeah, that’s we are at.

56:36.40
charukaarora
Perfect. Thank you so much living Withta. Thank you so much for being so kind and wonderful and sharing your wisdom your journey experience and all in between with us I am so grateful have war.

56:46.45
Nivedita
Yeah, I’m very happy to do this lot of it was quite enlightening for me. Also I’ve never thought about some of these questions. So thanks for that and it was a pleasure to meet you and hopefully I’ll see you in a week from today. Okay, great now we have each other’s emails.

56:54.52
charukaarora
Yes I will I will thank you yes and why one spectrum.

57:06.20
Nivedita
Okay, great. Thanks Sharoka Bye have a good day.

CATEGORIES:

Leave a Reply